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  #51  
Old 03-08-2013, 06:02 AM
jack jack is offline
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

Mike, isn't rounding the point exactly what Frank did when he did his W movement on the stone before he started the cutting. This point is very strong and I believe Frank said once that an engraver that makes a living at engraving does not like spending time sharpening his graver. No money is made there. I believe you could almost engrave a complete gun with only touching up sharpness a couple of times. I like the grave point. Jack
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  #52  
Old 03-08-2013, 06:20 AM
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

Being now more confused than anyone could imagine...I will give it another try and see what happens. I wish the good fairy would drop me a few grand...then I could attend a workshop LOL
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  #53  
Old 03-08-2013, 09:12 AM
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

piper,I see you live in Germany and with all the talented engravers in Germany theres got to be someone near you to help you.Germany was where Frank Hendricks learned about the Speitzer graver while stationed in the Air Force. J.J.
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  #54  
Old 03-08-2013, 04:45 PM
piper piper is offline
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

I have just played with this thing for another hour or so and it isn't cutting like it should, plain and simple. I know my heel theory isn't up to snuff, but I've made enough points by now to either know how, or something isn't right. Not had problems with any other types of templates. I don't have a fixture to grind points that you can set, but I took a diamond file and increased the angle of the heels to something like the universal has, (where you can actually look and see the angle difference), and it made better corners. Not clean like the universal, but better than before. So I then set it all back to the way the templates grind the point and it is back to gouged up corners.
Obviously this wasn't anything other than playing around, but it makes me wonder. But not about whether I can make a point or not.
So in the mean time...back to the universal for me! Got stuff to do. Let me know what you come up with... ;-)

PS

Wanna hear something strange? As a last attempt to not give up, I took the diamond block off the nylon pad and put it on the table next to the nylon pad to try heels with more of an angle difference to what it was, and the stinker cuts corners. Opinions?
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  #55  
Old 03-09-2013, 06:28 AM
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

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Originally Posted by JJ Roberts View Post
piper,I see you live in Germany and with all the talented engravers in Germany theres got to be someone near you to help you.

I haven't , in reality run into too many here. If they are here, please I hope they will chip in and say so. Maybe something could be worked out for me. I did go for three days to Roland in Belgium back a few years ago when I was considering whether I should buy a Lindsay graver or not. He got me started in three days and I made the decision to actually buy one, but I've never had more than those couple days of tips and tricks from him. I must say that he was a kind and patient person and took his time with me to the extent that he made a believer out of me. He is a BIG fan of Lindsay and just watching him was an experience. He's a skilled and artistic engraver for sure... as all here in the forum can see from his work.
But maybe we can find someone closer to me to help me, so the expenses don't run up too high, I need the instruction, but I also need to scrape to get up the funding to pay for it. Money is scarce for me at the moment.
Thanks!
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  #56  
Old 03-09-2013, 08:38 AM
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

piper,Theres an engraving school in Austria and the teacher is very talented man by the name of Martin Strotz,something to think about.Its called going out of your way.J.J.
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  #57  
Old 03-11-2013, 08:10 AM
piper piper is offline
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

Thank you Mr Roberts,
I know there is a school somewhere down there but could find no reference to it in the net. There is one too in Switzerland. I guess I could find a teacher if I could afford it. That's the main problem. I got sick a while ago and my employer didn't find it acceptable, if you know what I mean, so at over 60...my chances are slim to none something else to find. We will pull through, but a lot of cash to go to a school..just isn't available. So I will keep plugging along, keep bothering all of you with "beginner" questions that I should have gotten under control a long time ago...and do the best I can.

I still wait for some kind of response to the fact that this point mentioned above, cuts better by adding angle to the heels. What is wrong, or right with this picture? As for sure, the templates I have, don't produce much of a heel angle at all. Most nothing. Tempted to think the templates are the problem, but who am I to question the Gods on this?
I measured a big difference when comparing the universal and the spreitzer templates if you measure between the hole and the heel part of the templates. So the universal really is much more of a heel angle...even on the templates. The spreitzer template heel part is much closer to the hole and this causes the heel angle to be almost non-existent. Is this as should be?
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  #58  
Old 03-11-2013, 11:57 AM
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

piper,The templates are a fool proof way designed to save you hours of sharping the gravers by hand witch Im glad I don't have to do any more.I wish I could help you more,maybe someone else on the forum can ad to this thread. J.J.
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  #59  
Old 03-11-2013, 12:32 PM
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

The angle of the heels (large templates) is the same on the Speiterzer as the Universal 116 degree template. The smaller template that grind the relief of the points are different though. The Universal is lower and therefore does give more relief that helps prevent heel drag. I had experimented when working on the Speiterzer set with a lower angle for the shaping (small template) and it works but it makes a lot more work for the initial grinding, plus the facets run up further on the shank. It is possible to grind this way though with the templates you have by raising the diamond bench stone up 1/8" to 3/32" when using the small template. (Should work to use a couple 3/32" gravers under the bench stone to raise it). Then set the bench stone back down to normal height when placing the heels on using either of the large templates.

Another option for additional relief, but makes a higher angle of attack, is to grind a higher heel angle on when using the large template as Piper mentioned earlier. Use the small template at normal height first to shape and taper the graver, and then when placing the heels on with the large template lower the diamond bench stone 1/4" (making total height difference between top of the lap and where the template is setting 3/4" rather than the normal 1/2"). Or yet another method to do the same is to stick the graver out less far than the normal 1-1/4" length when placing the heels on with the large template.

I have been preferring gravers ground at angle of attack of 17 degrees and this is partially why I stuck with this angle on the Speiterzer large templates. The nature of the grinding and shaping with the small template of the Spetizer becomes more tedious if is lowered much more than it is though and that is why it is not as low as the 116 universal. So if you'd like more clearance on the Speitzer and don't mind a higher angle of attack heel then you can lower the height of the bench stone when placing the small heels on with the large template or stick the graver out less far.
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  #60  
Old 03-11-2013, 01:38 PM
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

The wider the V angle of the graver by nature the more clearance it will have. Same holds true with all the V points and templates. More clearance can be gained to any of them by decreasing the heel relief angle or raising the primary heel, or a combination of both. The narrower the V and deeper the cut the less of a radius can be cut without dragging.

I ground another Speitzer a few minutes ago to check again. It is working for me just as the default with little drag. Be sure you're not making the heel to large. Something else that can play into this particularity with this point is to use the diamond bench stones for final shaping with the small template. You can use a power hone if you'd like to rough grind the initial shaping but for final shaping with the small template use a diamond bench stone (600 or 1200 grit works good for final). Then switch to the large template to clean up the face with a 2000 diamond bench stone. Use the same 2000 stone for the heels but go at it carefully and slow. You want the heels to be even and just a hair wide. The reason for the diamond bench stones for final of both templates is so there are no variables getting the point to come out. If the hone is off a tad in one direction or another with the small template you may pull your hair out trying to grind it
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  #61  
Old 03-11-2013, 08:56 PM
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

I agree with Steve. I never crate a heel on any graver on the power hone - power hones are just too aggressive and cut too fast for me. Its really easy to overdo the heel on a power hone...and in my opinion that's what has created much of this long discussion about the Speitzer Template set.

I start making my heels on the 1200 grit bench bock (the kind that comes with the Template Set). Next, I polish the facets of the heel on a Ruby Stone ( or a hard Arkansas). The final step is to bring the heel to mirror bright on the cast iron block loaded with diamond paste. Throughout the process I continually check the my progress by examining the facets with a jewelers loupe to see that the each side is ground the same and the the point is centered properly.

The final step in finishing the process is to "Dub" the graver on the Ruby stone. Dubbing makes the point stronger and it also allows the chip to ride straight up the face of the graver - instead of curling up and obstructing my view of the whatever line I am cutting.
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  #62  
Old 03-12-2013, 04:43 AM
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Crazy Horse Crazy Horse is offline
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

Please don't take this in the wrong way, but considering this fellow is having trouble getting the tool to cut without dragging shouldn't you gentlemen be a little bit more specific. By that I mean just how wide should the heel be? Should it be 1/32 (.032) or possibly lesser, say 1/64 (.015) in width?

As far as the dubbing, would you suggest 60 degrees or possibly more, and should that create a "flat" point of let's say, 1/64th on the face of the tool?

I found the Spitzer to be a very aggressive tool in the wider widths, but less so in the narrower width. Granted, I wasn't trying to go very deep with a narrow tool.
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  #63  
Old 03-12-2013, 04:56 AM
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

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Originally Posted by MikeDubber View Post
The final step in finishing the process is to "Dub" the graver on the Ruby stone. Dubbing makes the point stronger and it also allows the chip to ride straight up the face of the graver - instead of curling up and obstructing my view of the whatever line I am cutting.
This is the first time I've heard the term Dub, how would you "Dub" the graver and can you Dub other points as well? Is it something you would do for every graver or maybe just for certain cuts?.....sorry I don't mean to be off topic but it spiked my curiosity, those chips know how to get in the way just at the right time, Thank you.
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  #64  
Old 03-12-2013, 09:21 AM
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

To dub the point, after you finish grinding the point hold the graver straight down on a 2000 bench stone softly and drag it a short distance (half an inch or less).
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File Type: jpg pointdubbing.jpg (50.3 KB, 0 views)
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  #65  
Old 03-12-2013, 09:36 AM
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

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Originally Posted by Steve Lindsay View Post
You want the heels to be even and just a hair wide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy Horse View Post
By that I mean just how wide should the heel be? Should it be 1/32 (.032) or possibly lesser, say 1/64 (.015) in width?
I mentioned a hair width, but that would depend who's hair. But more specific aim for .003" to .006" wide, although relative to depth of cut, similar to heeling other graver points.
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  #66  
Old 03-12-2013, 12:46 PM
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

Thanks Steve. That explanation should help. As a standard, the human hair is about .003 and so is the paper commomaly used in a computer printer.
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  #67  
Old 03-12-2013, 07:19 PM
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Lindsay View Post
To dub the point, after you finish grinding the point hold the graver straight down on a 2000 bench stone softly and drag it a short distance (half an inch or less).
Thanks Steve, for the explanation and illustration.
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  #68  
Old 04-09-2013, 11:26 PM
Hybridfiat Hybridfiat is offline
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

Thanks Steve that is very helpfull.
I continue to dream of your Palmgraver and lust after one.
I may have to do the unthinkable and sell a couple of rifles to get one.
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  #69  
Old 10-24-2013, 12:38 PM
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

Very soon I am going to get hole set of templates
Steve, could you tell us how much will be cost hole set, please.
By the way, how many pcs ( all of them) do you have so far?

Thank you very much
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  #70  
Old 10-29-2013, 06:00 PM
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

Hi Lvvp, There are three to the set of Speitzer templates. They are $42.
Mike Dubber Speitzer point $42.00


Here is a link to the sharpener page.
http://www.airgraver.com/sharpening.htm
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  #71  
Old 10-31-2013, 07:12 AM
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

Hi Steve,

Thank you, I found it.
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  #72  
Old 07-03-2014, 12:48 AM
jAaron jAaron is offline
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

Having just ordered and received the template set I sat down to go over the thread. Even though this thread has been inactive for a while. It occurred to me while reading through it that a few photos of the heal side of the points might have been useful in illustrating some of the finer points of heal geometry.

Sadly I do not have the proper equipment to add to this discussion with photos. For that matter I do not know that my use of the template is as fully described by Mike Dubber.

Dose any one have the inclination and/or ability to photograph the heal side of the graver and add it to the documentation?

The variability of this point makes it a bit more work may require several photos.

Thanks for the thread to date.
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  #73  
Old 05-26-2016, 03:18 PM
papart1 papart1 is offline
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

Thanks Mr. Lindsay........I received my Speitzers today,another tool in the arsenal . I will be getting them going very soon.
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  #74  
Old 08-13-2016, 02:42 AM
peterspanje peterspanje is offline
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

Quote:
Originally Posted by jAaron View Post
Having just ordered and received the template set I sat down to go over the thread. Even though this thread has been inactive for a while. It occurred to me while reading through it that a few photos of the heal side of the points might have been useful in illustrating some of the finer points of heal geometry.

Sadly I do not have the proper equipment to add to this discussion with photos. For that matter I do not know that my use of the template is as fully described by Mike Dubber.

Dose any one have the inclination and/or ability to photograph the heal side of the graver and add it to the documentation?

The variability of this point makes it a bit more work may require several photos.

Thanks for the thread to date.
Am I wrong to assume that this type of engraver has NOT a heel?

Last edited by peterspanje; 08-13-2016 at 02:51 AM. Reason: Oops made an mistake, ignore message
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  #75  
Old 08-19-2016, 02:50 PM
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Steve Lindsay Steve Lindsay is offline
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Default Re: Mike Dubber "Speitzer" Graver Point Template set

Hi Peter, I missed your post earlier. Here is what Mike mentioned about the heel:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubber View Post
The Speitzer does cut very straight -with or without a heel. But you need an adequate heel to clear the edges of the cut and to prevent furrowing when rounding curves. Naturally, no heel at all will cause major furrows, so you should start by forming the proper heel....and as explanied by Redgreen, that's a process of personal experimentation.

No two engravers work exactly the same and there are numerous personal variations that might be causing your problem...and one of those might be because you are simply cutting way too deep and over-working the graver??? The dynamics of the geometry and graver point design is only half of the formula - the other half has more to do with individual skill and experience.

When I have students in my studio I have them cut as lightly as they can at first to begin to feel and understand how the graver cuts - then gradually deepen the cuts until they become comfortable and the cuts are clean. When you start seeing furrows in the curves, it's usually a matter of overpowering the graver.
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